Think I'm Cursed

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1

Hi guys,

Well I’m back again. I finally just held Requiem for my first planing (2 plants) in soil and started over hydro. I’ve really busted my butt trying to keep everything within the lines but things are starting to go to pot- no pun intended- again. Up until now I’ve had 3 beautiful, lushly dark green seedlings merrily growing along. Now between feedings -3 days- I’ve got yellowed leaves again. They are the very lowest leaves on the largest plant only. Hopefully I can get some pics uploaded. There is one finger of the largest leaf that’s readily visible. On the opposite side of the plant is another leaf about 1/2 the size, and to the right of the large leaf you can see the third as just a sprig sticking away from the stalk. I’ve copied a Support Ticket below so maybe that will help define things.

Strain; Type, Bag seed, or NA - I didn’t tag the plants but this I Believe is Amnesia Haze

Soil in pots, Hydroponic, or Coco? - Hydro

System type? Bubble Boy DWC

PH of runoff or solution in reservoir? - 5.8 +/=

What is strength of nutrient mix? EC, or TDS - 56 TDS

Indoor or Outdoor - Indoor

Light system, size? LED 250w Dirt Genius center overhead 4’ 8" above canopy (Red, Blue, White, Orange and IR) plus 2 13w side panels (Red, Blue, White, Orange)

Temps; Day - 27C Night: 22c

Humidity; Day, Night I am having trouble with humidity and have 4 saucers of water in enclosure. I have ordered a mister/humidifier but have not received it as yet. Day: 55% Night: 48%

Ventilation system; Yes, 4 in. with carbon filter. Plus 6 in. circular fan in enclosure.

AC, Humidifier, De-humidifier, N/A. I will be adding mister/humidifier upon receipt.

Co2; Yes, No No at this time I am awaiting an order of Green Bag, Jr. and will add when received.

Add anything else you feel would help us give you a most informed answer. Feel free to elaborate, but short, to the point questions and facts will help us help you smile - I just started with MJ Grow nutes 6 days ago when roots became developed enough to enter hydro solution. I started the plants in the DWC system using rock moss cubes and hand watered with 1/4 strength Fox Farms Big Grow until the products I purchased from this site arrived. The solution mix with your grow product for veg state is 1 capful to 3 gal (approx) of distilled water.

Any help will be really appreciated.

Remember joking and toking are nature’s best cures for stress and depression.

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56 TDS? Do you mean it is a EC of 56 or is it PPM of 56?

Is the 250w the actual watts that the “dirt genius” uses and it uses 83 or more 3w leds?

Also you are going to actually want to keep the lights probably at about a 18" - 24" distance from the canopy and raise the light slowly as the plants grow, you will get a less wide coverage area, but you will get much denser and better growth. The little I do know about the details about the dirt genius brand, in general after googling it, is that they use 3 watt LED diodes and they have only the primary lens, so it isn’t very focused or run very powerfully, about half power, so about 1.5 watt per LED. These light might allow for the plant to be nearly touching the glass enclosure without light bleaching or heat burning. And the 14 watt panels can certainly pretty much touch the plants and not hurt them, so they should be very close too.

Also, I don’t think you have a lot to worry about, some of those lower leaves will yellow and fall off, especially the less developed early leaves, as the plant grows taller. You may want to prune some of that undergrowth anyway, to direct the plant’s energy to developing the tops that are getting the most light.

Also your temps are a little high. 80f/27C is too high, this means your reservoir is probably very close to these temperatures.

In hydro, especially in DWC, you don’t want your reservoir above 78F/25C, your water will have trouble holding dissolved oxygen above that temperature and you will start to experience similar symptoms as over watering and the roots will start to drown.

3

Hi

As reply above says dont worry too much about the lower leaves going brown and falling off ,those little leaves in pic I take off as they are the seed leave.

Ref your TDS , for veggie stage I have been using a rough guide figure of 1200PPM for growing. With PH in and around a range of 5.6 - 6.2. Temperature should not exceed 70 degrees F in the reservoir as as the reply above says it cause the dissolved oxygen to be less and the uptake of nutrients becomes less.

During grow and flower stages leaves will fall off after going brown , the plants naturally get rid of leaves they dont need in sugar processes or that are diseased. if you search the net there are many good pictures and descriptions of such diseases, incl the free books from here.

I stick by a rule an old experienced grower gave me…he told me Less is more when growing except when your testing ,

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A temperature around 70 in the reservoir is more ideal, but not absolutely necessary, it can get up to as high as 78f without any problems as long as everything else is pretty close to ideal, pH etc, and as long as you have enough aeration. You don’t absolutely need to go to the extremes of getting an aquarium chiller or keeping your air temps around 70f if you don’t really want to or can’t afford to go that route immediately.

5

Thanks so much for all the great info.

I’m glad it was here this AM as I hadn’t checked my tent at that time. When I did check it I found out that the controller on the exhaust fan had gone tits up during the night. Fortunately I was able to just take the exhaust fan directly to the socket and it’s working fine just running full blast all the time. I keep a spare fan on hand but it’s 100 miles to anywhere I could hope to find a new controller.

When I checked things this AM and got the fan running here’s how things stabilized:

TDS = 210ppm (I fed with Grow Booster yesterday.)
Enclosure Temp = 76F - at canopy level
Reservoir Temp = 73F - The reservoir level is about 1/2 - 3/4" below bottom of Netty pots.
Ph = 7.1 (I had it at 5.8 after feeding yesterday-- it creeps up overnight.)
Humidity = was 71% with the exhaust fan inop and came down to 55% (the mister I ordered came by UPS this AM and is installed throwing a very nice, fine mist. It hasn’t been on long enough to tell what % will result just yet.)

To talk about the lighting, I lowered everything as suggested. The Dirt Genius panel I bought because of the specifics. This panel has above visual range (IR) as well as the normal spectrums. IT IS 3w bulbs capacity AND output in all spectrums. And it has 3 integral fans to help dissipate what little heat the bulbs do produce. I also have the 6 in. circular fan just above the level of the lights to help with heat; prevent stagnant air areas; and, move the plants enough to help strengthen the stems.

So that’s the picture right now. Can anyone see any real probs?

Thanks again! And to quote a “stoner” bud of mine… “Happiness is spelled THC.” Keep on toking.

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Everything looks pretty good, the only thing I’m worried about is the pH rising so much overnight. The plants, the way they grow can change the pH, but it shouldn’t change so much in such a short time. Did you say you are using hard tap water? And what are you using as a pH down?

Higher PPMs will likely help the pH stabilize, most people run around 400 - 600 PPM, even in veg or early growth.

7

Well I’m still guessing. The same plant that’s pictured at the top now has the 2 bottom fan leaves with the same pattern of discoloration. It won’t show in the pics but there’s like a clear or kinda greenish “dead skin” on the stalk for about 2 1/2 - 3 inches. The fan leaves don’t really seem to be dying although I’m guessing that they will. Finally just about everything is in the “pipe” except the Rh and the climbing Ph. Res. temp is 69F, free air temp. is 74F, and I boosted feeding yesterday and am at 330 ppm with Growth Booster today.Based on what McGuyver said I’m going to boost to 500 - 525 ppm and see what happens. Of the 3 plant going right now I’ve got a “runt of the litter”. It’s about half the size of the other 2 but that’s probably strain difference the plant sure looks healthy enough.

Mucho thanks for the great help so far. Hey, let’s all push to make toking an Olympic Event.

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Question, you do normally have the empty hole covered to block out the light to the reservoir, yes?

I am a bit worried about the overall droopiness of the plant more than the older less mature leaves yellowing and falling off, as stated before, that could be normal. But I am a little worried about the look of the yellow, it doesn’t look the the normal "plant has decided it no longer needs the leaf and it goes light pale yellow, and they can even become kind of soft and thin, this leaf looks a little more like it is maybe “leathery”, and I think that might point more to a nutrient problem. And I’m also worried a little about how that same plant looks a bit yellow up top and in the center. More signs pointing to maybe a nutrient problem.

There might also still be a chance for some reason that maybe you need more air, just a thought, I’m not familiar with the bubble boy’s air pump.

Maybe Latewood can chime in on the nutrients, I haven’t had any experience with it yet and am not familiar with the mixing ratios. etc. But I do know, in general, most nutrient systems rely on those numbers being around a minimum 400-500 PPM and often have the majority of the grow at much higher, 1200 or so. SO yeah, hopefully the higher concentration will help stabilize your pH and help out with any nutrient deficiencies that might be the main contributor to your problem.

The clearish dead skin on the stem is also worrisome. Be sure your water level isn’t too high and getting the base of the stem/“trunk” wet, this can lead to pythium.

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Thanks for the quick follow up. The uncovered hole is my “service entrance” and is covered except when checking levels, feeding, etc. I guess I’m a bit gun shy after the first couple of plants we started met early demises. It was pretty clear nute burn was a primary contributor to them going belly up. The brand name on the Ph up/down I’m using is Draxxes and I’m beginning to wonder about it. It something I picked up on Ebay cheap – 'nuff said. That and the RH. I began with a “mister” a quick word of experience on that is it would raise RH 5 points not to mention slobbering water everywhere. So today I went to a humidifier and within 2 hours on high the RH was up to 97% so it looks like operating on low and a timer will be the deal there. (PS. If some one else considers the humidifier common sense rules you’ll want a Cool mist not a Warm mist;) The Bubble Boy I bought has one 2 port aerator pump and 1 “stone” that’s about 2" x 6" so I’m definitely going to re-vamp that. too. That “scale” is a head scratcher but it’s not from high water. I religiously keep the res level a minimum of 3/4 - 1" below the bottom of the netty pots so that has to be coming from something else. I’m hoping it’s going to be Ph related I’ll let you know how things are trending in the next couple of days. Many, many thanks, again.

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There is definitely an issue if your PH keeps climbing to 7 overnight. Either your reservoir is infected from previous use, ph measuring device has a bad probe, or ultimately the water. I see a lot of post claiming PH rising too much… I have never experienced this issue. Especially in the beginning stages of the grow. :grimacing:

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No lw,

It is not from prior use. I bought the system new washed it out with mild detergent and double rinsed it with boiling water before I put it into use. Same same for everything submersible EXCEPT the air stone and I didn’t know enough about them to take a gamble. So any contamination would be from another source. I took moment to Google Draxxes and it has taken several hits for not working. So I’ve ordered some General Hydroponics products that seem to have a good rep. In the meantime I’m going to go to an old fall back hit the solution with some bicarb. If it’ll kill stomach acid it sure ought to work here and I’ve used it on all kind of soil apps in my 60+ years. If testing I’ve done today pans out about, 1/8 tsp/gal should drop acidity about 1 point. The Ph meter I have is pretty close. I just calibrated it with a Borax medium that should be good to about ± .10. It may be wishful thinking but I believe that my plants have greened up a bit after the steps I took yesterday. I should know for sure tomorrow. Thanks, man.

PS. Oxygenation came up too so I’m looking at an alternative there. I was searching around when I ran across a system called Red Frog do you or anyone else know anything about it. The promos really look good so I’m going to give it a shot. If you aren’t familiar you can check it out here: Red Frog Air Stone System

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I think making sure those reservoir temps are in a more ideal range is going to help a lot with the oxygen.

I have seen those devices, I wonder what the washers are made of and what type or types of plastics are used.

I imagine they should work well, as I used to, in some types of applications where I was wanting a lot of fine aeration in a shallow DWC, I would use something similar made for fish aquariums. It did work really really well, super fine bubble mist in the water and I could shape it to fit the container and for the arrangement of basket pots above. But then I found out that the way they kept that fish tank type from floating, as opposed to the washers on the hydroponic type you shared the link, and this way was with a lead wire in the middle of the microfiber hose/tube.

I would be curious what micro porous material these hoses are made of as well as the metals in the washers. I guess in a fish tank where you will keep the pH very near neutral, 7, you don’t really have to worry a lot about a lot of lead leaching out of the wire, and after a time a calcium lime scale patina will build up on it preventing any more lead from easily leaching into the water, and besides can you really give a gold fish that much lead related brain damage memory loss?

But in a hydroponic system that is at 5.8, which is fairly acidic compared to most “plain” water, you’d likely have a much higher chance for higher amounts of lead leaching into the water. I might be wrong and the grey silver thick wire I found when in one of the fish tank aeration hoses tore open, it might be a zinc and silver mix that is very soft and flexible like a copper, gold or lead, but I’d imagine if it had silver in it it would be much more expensive. I couldn’t find any reliable information to confirm or deny my suspicions that is is likely made of mostly if not entirely lead and if anyone knows, I’d love for you to let us know if that grey heavy wire inside those fish tank fine bubble bendable aeration tubes/hoses are totally made from a nontoxic metal. But the washers on those hydro bucket aeration rings would most likely be made mostly of zinc and steel and even if the washers started showing pitting, a little iron from the steel and a little zinc from the galvanized coating would only add need nutrients to the reservoir and shouldn’t be anything bad for you or your plant.

Another thought, adding another stone, on another complete separate air hose going straight to the individual air pump outlet, your air pump wont have to work as hard to squeeze as much air through only one skinny hose or any restrictive elbows or ‘T’ connectors, this alone may increase the liters per minute your air pump can push into your reservoir.

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Hi Mac ,lw.

I don’t know if this is good or bad. The lower fan leaves of all 3 plants are now showing the same discoloration. Other side of the coin that it is not as pronounced. The larger plant is also showing pre-blooms even where I took the discolored leaves off.and generally the plants look greener overall and not quiet as “droopy”. I fed this AM and topped off the res level @ 3/4" below the nettys. Here’s the befores and afters:
Before After

  • Shelter Temp - 76.5F 75F
    -Res. Temp - 69F 70F
  • TDS - 573ppm 700ppm – Grow Booster Only
  • Ph - 7.3 5.8 - Right or wrong I used 100% pure Lemon Juice. 2 TBLSP to drop the level.
  • EC - 0.0 202 (x10) - Good or bad I have no idea on this.

Out of curiosity I lifted the plants and took a look at the root system. None were prolific just 2 - 3 longer systems per plant. The roots were brownish in color and there was a white, foamy slime on the entireity of the micro root zones.

Hopefully this will provide someone a little insight as to what’s going on here. I’ve read everything I got from this site and half of everything I can Google that seems to come close to these symptoms still to no avail.

Still. Big time thanks for the great, unselfish help you given me… You guys are GREAT and that’ all there is to it. Remember. A nice big J is the key to the Universe.

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It does sound like they are on the mend.

You can look into H2O2 and beneficial microbial additives to help clean up the look of your roots and reservoir. Don’t use them together, use the H2O2 to clean up your reservoir for a few days, then replace the lost benneficial bacteria and fungi with the “good microbes” additive, like eating yogurt or taking pro-biotics after taking a antibiotic. If you add the H2O2 at the same time as the good microbes, you’ll just kill a ton of all those expensive microbes, lol.

The roots should start to look a lot better on their own even, just by making sure the temps stay low and the aeration is high, this will encourage the growth of the good microbes and make it harder for the bad ones to survive.

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OK, I think there is some major failure of communication here.

Where is the EC reading coming from?

EC and TDS/PPM are basically the same thing.

An EC of 1=500 PPM on most Hanna and Milwaukee, or otherwise pens that use the USA conversion. European it would be 1EC=640ppm and Australian would be 1EC=700ppm.

If your aeration is good enough and the temps are really only 69F, I’m thinking if your reservoir EC is 2.02? it might be way to high? Also, likely from the parameters being off before, for so long, you developed a lot of root damage and bad microbes, as I said previously, H2O2 and/or a mycorrhizae(benneficial microbes) supplement would help your roots get back on track.

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Sorry about getting today’s post out of thread. If appropriate could you please transfer as needed. I did add H2O2 yesterday afternoon. Lacking a frame of reference I added 1tblsp (15ml). There were/are deeper probs too that really stump me and were/are almost too transitory to keep up with. When I zipped the tent up last night the free air temp FAT) was 75.5F; reservoir temp was 71.2F; RH was 52%; Ph was 5.9; EC, TDS, etc. was as described in the previous post. When I unzipped the tent this AM the inside FAT was 88.7F; outside (room) FAT was 75.6; Res temp was 77.7; Ph was 7.3; and I did not take any more measurements. The measuring devices I have are not Brand Name but I calibrated the old ones VERY CAREFULLY and took the new ones (TDS & EC meters) as being accurate from the factory. From the start I have been suspicious of Res oxygenation, fluctuating Ph. and not being able to raise and maintain RH. Unfortunately I’m not able “run out” and purchase better “stuff” as the nearest physical store for hydroponics equipment is 65 miles away and I am mobility impaired so I pretty much have to buy over the Internet and wait for stuff to come in. Any failure in communications is unintentional I assure you. I’ve tried to relay everything as accurately and up to the moment as possible and respond to you guidance as closely as I can. You spoke of “good microbial” additives could you please provide a name or specific type(s)? I’m going to reset the Res and clean up everything I can in that sense. But the equipment issues are still problematic. 1) Achieving and maintaining temp & RH in the growing area. With a 4 inch exhaust/carbon filter and a 6 inch circular fan running 24/7, LED lighting and approx. 75F room temp what would cause the tent temp to sky rocket? Why the roller coaster Ph? Is inadequate oxygenation with the single large air stone an issue? Honestly, I don’t expect much improvement with those issues pending.
Still, I can’t say thanks loud enough for the time and trouble you all have taken to try and assist me. And be sure I’m going to grow some killer plants one way or another.
Good toking, Mark.

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By failure to communicate, I mean why do you have the two separate readings for ec and tds? I seem to be missing something. I don’t know what you don’t know, and of course you don’t know what you don’t know, don’t worry about all the questions.

And your reservoir was never above 700 PPM TDS?

And, well right off the bat, I thought I already made it clear you want your reservoir temps more near 70F and never above 75F if at all possible, this is probably the main cause of your root rot, assuming you aren’t burning them with too high of EC/PPM. I’d imagine the one air stone is providing enough air as it is sold that way, but I can’t rule that out as possibly part of the problem. The thing that keeps glaringly stand out is reservoir temps way too high for way too long of periods of time.

BTW, these two things are related, the higher the temp goes up, the more air you need because the water loses its ability to hold dissolved oxygen. At normal temps, the company that designed the bucket with that pump and airstone may never see any problems, but you go much above 70F in the reservoir and you will start having problems quickly w/o adding more air, and much above 75F you almost can’t ever add enough air.

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Also, your description, all of that is a lot to take in all at once, lol. maybe try separating out some of your thoughts with some good spaces, different paragraphs, it makes it easier for us to get to the core of the matter and understand what you are trying to say. Take a breath, take some time, we aren’t going anywhere, lol. I know I’m not always the best at it either, but I try and put those spaces in there to help every one be able to read it more clearly.

It sounds to me that if the outside temp is cool enough but the temps inside seem to be rising after the tent is closed/zipped up, you have an airflow problem and you need either a stronger exhaust fan to be able to push the hot air out of the top of the tent and suck a lot more cool air into the tent or you need to have a better inlet for fresh cool air to more easily get into the tent, with less restriction, or maybe a combination of the two.

And lemon juice, not the best nor the worst, I know many people that swear by it, but it certainly won’t help with pH stability, especially with all the other problems you are dealing with. A food grade liquid phosphoric acid or sulfuric acid(car battery refill) pH down would be much better.

After reviewing your exhaust conditions, the 4 inch fan might need to be upgraded, or your carbon filter is plugged and needs cleaning or replacement, these can contribute to reduced airflow and higher temps building up. You never mentioned it having an adjustable speed control, if it has one turning it up might help. If it doesn’t have a variable speed control, you probably need to upgrade to a centrifugal fan and likely a control unit. If it is a centrifugal fan and it is at max speed(turned all the way up or no controller) and the carbon filter is not plugged up, then maybe you need a more powerful fan, or maybe even need to upgrade to a larger 6 inch fan.

You can also try cutting something out of a discount store cheap mylar car-window-shade, to help cover and shade the reservoir from the IR light(part of radiated heat), but it is obvious most of the heat absorption in the reservoir is just from the air temp.

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Thanks for grabbing my leash. 23 years in the Army I tend to go into Combat mode and get the whole situation out in one breath when thing futz up like this has. It’s just that looking at 2 starts and 0 launches on plants after the effort that has gone in is disheartening. That and the fact that I have purely evil luck, too. If 1 in 100 of something is going to break, I’ll be the one to wind up with it.

It probably didn’t stand out for the reasons noted, but 3 or so day ago the controller on the exhaust fan failed. I noted it in one of the prior posts and that there had been an associated temp spike in both tent and Res. Since then the exhaust has been running full out 24/7. I’ve ordered a new one but it hasn’t come in yet. I didn’t suspect the carbon filter as it went in brand new when I bought the tent about 2 months ago. Just now with no odor problem I am just going to forgo the filter. Besides the tent only has one 4 inch outlet at the upper right rear and if the tent get pushed about the outlet can be pushed against the wall negating the exhaust. I think I will add a 6 inch exhaust just for good measure.

It’s come to 10 PM and I removed the carbon filter; set up the reservoir with fresh water at 5.8 Ph.; and, placed cool mist humidifier in the tent. In the fresh water the TDS meter I have read 123 so it is out as likely to have been one aspect of problems. Otherwise the Res temp is at 75F as is the tent temp. I did receive the Red Frog aerator today and installed it. If nothing else the aeration pattern looks a heck of a lot better than the one large stone. I had intended to add a second 7.8 lpm pump but not finding enough tubing Ts settled for running a tube from each pump port to the aerator.

Then came time to return the plants if they had made it. Flatly, I had transferred the plants into some bags of “super soil” and placed them out under the back eve of the house and after saying a Hail Mary left them there it being a nice cloudy, high humidity day with thunder storms this evening. When the wife brought the plants back in it was nothing short of a miracle to me as I think the pics will show. I don’t hold much hope for what was the largest plant but the smaller 2 have made unbelievable come backs from what I saw this morning. So much so in fact I’m hesitant about transferring back to the hydro and risking shock from that quarter. Decisions, decisions, huh?

I could certainly use opinions from wiser heads than mine as to a best course from here.

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I know how you feel my friend.
I lost my first to grows io mildew and spider mites.
came real close to throwing in the towel…lol
You put your heart an soul into growing like this and for what, set back after set back. not to mention the money lost.
But we still do it…don’t figure…lol
I almost lost this one to spider mites but got it cleared out before they killed everything. It never seems to stops …I just hang in there and you do the same to…ok?

Will