Sorry, I did not tag you brothers, I did’nt read the whole topic before… my bad
No worries, that stuff is difficult to keep up with.
Shoot, I’ll try anything to figure out how to make the plant produce more. In all my efforts in trying to make it produce more, I have yet to find one thing that would render some other variable in the grow useless…
I think the oxygen machine is a great idea but not at the expense of totally neglecting water temperatures.
Perhaps I’m over analyzing, but that’s what I do to things I feel I understand. Sure I want more weed, but I want more weed per square foot and kwh. There’s obviously a quality aspect in there too.
It’s all throwing money at the process. You’re either sacrificing with inferior equipment or throwing money at top level level equipment up front in my opinion. But there’s always ways to tweak and tune to make sure you’re getting the most out of every dollar you spend.
In this example, it takes around $300 to run it for a year, plus the initial investment. What do you receive for return on investment assuming nothing else changes? 20 grams, or like 100 grams? Whatever it is, how much could you get by investing that same amount of cost into your lighting or other environmental controls? Or better yet, could you find the same increase by simply adjusting your methods and not spend a dime?
Msybe I’m just a screwball, but I look at every aspect of my grows this way.
Not a screwball, I analyze from the same points of view, just different growing styles and personalities have caused us to tackle the same things with just different starting points and approaches, the destination is still the same.
I look at all these things as “trade offs”. There are plenty of tweaks that can be done in the whole process to “optimize” everything. The question is, just like you talked about above, I might get 20 grams extra, but will it be 40 grams of time and effort and money put in for a 20 grams in return?
As for the “trade off” approach, I have yet to find one variable that could totally negate another variable. For example here, I wouldn’t forget about water temperatures because my Dissolved Oxygen was perfect. Correct water temps wart off disease and other organisms that could compete with your plant for resources. If the plant is “competing” with anything then it is probably not operating in the “optimal” zones that a grower is trying to create.
As far as not operating optimally, I’m my own worst enemy. I’ll get two notches away from what I believe is having everything almost totally dialed in, then I’ll switch it all up. Switch from soil to hydro, and then go back to soil lol, instead of ever perfecting anything.
It’s really just going to be an experiment … not sure if I’ll really gain anything at this moment … right now I’m able to grow monster plants with my simple rdwc setup and it’s just for overflow actually and the plants grow ridiculous in the system just using CFLs for lighting and that’s not my main area , that’s just my throwback area for when I get a little crowded , so it’s no big deal either way and the air pumps that im using right now are the cheap $10 ones from Walmart and they’re killing it with two medium air stones in each bucket… but I actually have the bigger air pumps all the way to the biggest ones that you can get and only run those usually in my other rdwc setups… room temps never get over 80 and my water temp stay between 76 and 65 so no real issues there either … I never get any slime or algae in my tanks…
I’m just going to do a side-by-side and see if there’s any major difference in growth rate more or less and maybe the healthiness of the plants…
I know you don’t @peachfuzz, you have a really good handle on what your doing.
Just doing a small amount of reading in your post and one can see that
I’ve been a soil grower for years… just started dwc and rdwc a year and a half ago…
Last flower run in a 3 foot by 6 Foot scrogg under a 600 watt magnetic hps yielded a lil over 2 lb’s …
I Usally only tend to my plants once a week , but check on them twice a week just to make sure everything is still working…
I need to update my thread for you guy’s , I’ve just been to busy lately with work and family , so what lil time I do have is barely enough to take care of my girls…
Don’t get me wrong @peachfuzz, buddy. … I don’t say that your setting is wrong… You know that I like experimentations,
Only saying that do not expect stable 100 % of DO saturation… lol
I am convice that you have every things dial in
I just want to see if there is any difference in growth rate and health…
I’m just sharing the experience… lol
This is how they grow without the machine…
Right now every thing is running very well…
I’m very happy with what I’m doing now…
But I also like to experiment with things to see if there might be a benefit to my alterations…
Here’s a pic of 1 of 3 flower tables 2 weeks into flower…
If the fuz is bubbling 5 LPM of 96% oxygen into the reservoir water, why should he not expect to maintain 100% DO Sat or greater continuously if that’s what he want in his reservoir water, guaranteed 24/7/365?
I realize that is not possible with air pumps bubbling air through bubblers because the actual DO can be considerably less than the DO Chart predictions solely based on fresh water, water temperature, salinity and altitude. The DO is less than the DO Chart prediction after the biomass of roots and beneficial organism consume the DO they need for ATP metabolism, to be healthy. The DO the 2 ecosystems consume must be subtracted from the DO Concentration and DO Saturation found on the DO Chart predictions. The biomass of aerobic cells do consume considerable DO. Root rot problems are predictable when there is insufficient DO available and suffocation begins.
With the medical O2 generator, you have a lot of choices with the actual DO concentrations and DO Saturations you want… if you want more just increase the dose of O2 on the flow meter up a click – from 2 LPM to 3 LPM O2. When you have the technology to actually control the DO in your reservoir water quality, then and only then you have the capability to really control of ALL of your water quality parameters that are vital and sustain both eco systems… ain’t nothing to it when you can control the water quality.
If and when you have the ability to do that, DWC, RDWC horticulture becomes much less stressful, less consternation and excessive unnecessary concerns about root suffocation, root rot and fungal infestations. All that stress fades away with excellent sustained water quality.
So what’s the whole point of insuring excellent water quality and DO? That’s a no brainer, that’s what is necessary that insure and maintains healthy aerobic canna-roots and healthy aerobic microbial colonies 24/7 for the duration of every crop season.
Really Bro, that’s basic simple hydroponic horticulture science 101-A, freshman year. There is something to that worth investigation if you have caught a dose of the root rot or if you ever think about the possibilities of maybe catching a dose of the root rot.
Yep, side by side is way to go. See first hand how things turn out. I agree you seem to have your grows dialed. That’s why I was asking what the increase would be in power, because it seems unlikely you have a ton of room for improvement. Especially at the cost of a few hundred watts.
In case any of you ever wonder how O2 generator (PSA Oxygen concentrators) actually generated such a high concentration of oxygen, spend a minute or 2 here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_concentrator
Oxygen (concentrators) generators do not make bubbles unless some sort of diffuser (bubbler) is attached to the terminal end of an O2 tube, the proximal end of the O2 tube is attached to the O2 generator flow meter. You control the dose of oxygen (not a dose of air).
If you use the right diffuser, 100% DO saturation may be reached within minutes even in 90 F water with a minimum dose of 96% O2 dial in on the O2 flow meter, 1-2 LPM O2. As the roots grow and mature as do the aerobic microbial colonies they all require more oxygen to be healthy… so dial in another liter or 2 on the O2 flow meter and Bro, that is all there is to increasing the DO in your water and maintaining safe DO concentrations.
If you prefer DO supersaturation, > 100% DO Saturation you can do that to by simply increasing the dose of O2 on the flow meter up to 3-4-5 LPM of 96% oxygen. Remember that with supplemental 96% oxygen, you do have total control of the all water quality including the DO water quality. Your DO is no longer limited by using ambient air, air compressors and bubblers, water chillers, air ventures or multi layered water falls with supplemental O2 administration. Until you have control of your DO in your reservoir, then and only then do you have total control of all the water quality parameters in your hydroponic life support system. You have a choice - either you have control or you do not have control of your water quality… it is really that simple.
You are right about the Nano-bubbles, if you buy and hook up a Nano-bubble generator to that O2 concentrator, that combination is the absolute best, the most efficient method of absolutely controlling and insuring stable DO water quality in any DWC, RDWC.
The rocket science hydroponics technologies available today - Many commercial hydroponic growers do use O2 generators because they are dependable and a cost effective, an inexpensive source oxygen (96% O2) and Nano-bubble generators that insure extreme oxygen dissolving efficiency in water. When your DO in reservoir water is low, the roots and aerobic microbes fail to make sufficient ATP…
Bro, that low DO crisis is the # 1 precursor to root suffocation, root cell death, root rot and crop failure and low O2 events can happen quickly for many reasons. That horror is what most hobby hydroponic growers absolutely dread when they open the box and see those slimy brown rotting roots when the grow room begins to stink.
You have control over all the water quality parameters in reservoir water except DO when/if you are dependent on ambient air for oxygen. If/when you take control and responsibility for the DO then the possibility of a low oxygen crisis and root suffocation would be never. Low DO’s never happen regardless of the reservoir water temperature when DO saturation/DO supersaturation is maintained 24/7.
Supplemental O2 administration and Nano-bubbles applied to hydroponic horticulture is real modern horticulture rocket science compared to the usual Bro-Science or experimentation without scientific basis or scientific methodology, he said, she said, they say = Bro Science. Cannabis cultivation is steeped in Bro Science.
I get all that, bro, I really do , I only saying that to reach those levels of DO and to be stable, you have to run your system 24/7 like you already mention, with macro or micro bubbles, most probably less time with nanobubbles
It’s not very energy effecient and if you don’t use a chiller, you’re gone a have eventualy temps issues that may would also eventualy lead to algae problems.
For non commercial or industrial setting, it not worth the cost in O2 bottles (like fuzz one), energy and electricity bills at the end.
I maybe wrong, but a lot of small grower are not necessarly willing to pay way more to grow their own if they can buy it cheaper for the same quality, depends on the reputation of the furnisher or dispensary , of course
And, of course, others, simply do not really care or matter and just love growing…
I find all this commercial hydroponic oxygenation technology scientifically interesting after reading published white papers, horticulture research. Hydroponic oxygenation with pure or near pure elemental O2 gas is relatively new and interesting to techys, but I like to learn about the new science stuff and try it out. I like to read the cutting edge horticulture science and journals including the newest technological advancements that are proven to shorten grow-out time, increase production volume and quality of the harvest.
Supplemental oxygenation and the advanced O2 technology necessary to deliver pure elemental oxygen (O2), absolutely control DO water quality regardless of aerobic biomass consuming O2 or water temperature and the ability to accurately manipulate DO is high-tech stuff that is no doubt light years beyond the scope, imagination, interest and budget restrictions of average hobby growers concerned with growing a few canna-plants for a personal stash at home in a basement, closet, or small apartments where noise and odors are often problematic.
Yes, supplemental O2 like air is delivered continuously, 24/7/months, bubbled through bubblers or entrained into a venture inlet… no different running an air pump 24/7/months pumping air through bubblers or water pumps insuring water flow over 1-2 falls. The difference is the gas (pure O2 or pure room air).
Most hobby growers’ primary concern is cost of production per crop, ***growing pounds of buds in several yearly crops that are potent enough to stay high every day and grow extra buds for friends and family usage.
How much pot can 1 full blown “head” or a family pf “heads” consume in 1 year, 3-5 pounds of cured buds? How much does it cost to hydroponically grow, harvest and packaged 3-5 pounds of buds? $500 maybe?
Hobby quality cannabis is a subjective evaluation. Will a bowl or 2 get you high enough, will 3 bowls get you real high, will 4 bowls put your lights out, is it dry, wet, sticky, a little mold in a bud here or there is no big deal either, it’s all burned.
You’re right, there is clearly a kind of primal fascination associated with growing cannabis that is distinctive, unmistakable that can be compelling.
Not sure what kind of bud you’re growing, but I would put the majority of weed people I know home grow over most of the commercially available weed I’ve come across. That includes dispensary supplied weed.
Granted, a lot of that comes from more of a connoisseur type of cure vs the typical commercial quick cure. And there always has to be a curve for people that aren’t exactly sure of what they’re doing. But hobby grower isn’t limited to someone trying to grow bag seed in their parents basement for the first time either.
Just my opinion based on my experiences, so take it with a grain of salt. But I would almost go as far to say that a lot of the commercially available weed is inferior to most of the home grown I have experience with.
This is 100% right…
I feel as this thread has almost become a sales pitch
No offense @JH231 but I almost feel like you sell these on the side lol
Sorry you have those mal-feelings and misconceptions, I did not realize that. I will be glad to help you sort that out, hopefully help you correct and realign your feelings and misconceptions about me.
No, I’m not a salesman, teacher, student, race car driver, welder or guitar player… I don’t sell used cars, new or used medical oxygen generators, O2 gas nor do I beat the drums in a country music band in beer joints for free beer, cash and loose cowgirls. **** I take no offence at all so you can put that to rest now if you like.
Yes, I do work, I pay taxes and I got a great $4,000 bonus last Christmas and a great tax break totaling $6,000 and change… It’s been a long, long time since I and my friends at work have had that much spare money in my jeans. Times are finally, finally getting good again in America, the American Dream is definitely come alive again and that feels real good.
Please be very clear so I completely understand you… what exactly do you think I am selling and how much am I selling this for?
I have set through a few hours of horticulture classes in high school and college and I do have scientific based working knowledge of the mechanics required for successful hydroponic farming.
I do keep up with the (horticulture) hydroponic or water culture research, published research found in professional journals and scientific publications. Yes, I am interested in and do keep up with new growing concepts and the new technologies applicable in the hydroponic horticulture industry. No disrespect toward Bro Science either.
As many know, root rot is often caused in water environments having “low dissolved oxygen saturations.” Rice farming being an exception. Rice thrives in stagnate water, roots constantly submerged under water and mud having very, very low DO saturations. These new O2 technologies that deliver pure O2 gas prevent all low oxygen events in nutrient water. Pure O2 gas and O2 technologies are a big deal in the world of commercial hydroponic farming these days, especially applied in the warmer subtropical and tropical climes throughout the world. Much of the population of the world that live in these hot arid and tropical climes are seriously dependent on the degree of the farmers’ success… hydroponic farming success.
Example: Pegasus Agriculture Estimates Global Hydroponics Market to Grow Exponentially https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pegasus-agriculture-estimates-global-hydroponics-market-to-grow-exponentially-630076703.html June 22, 2017.
Sometimes, occasionally, hobby hydroponic canna-growers do benefit from applying techniques and technologies discovered in horticulture science.
New, strange technologies that render old technologies ancient, ineffective and obsolete can be very disturbing, unsettling. Who would have ever imagined that a simple elemental gas (O2) is so vital to aerobes and could replace room air, air pumps, and hypothermia in the commercial world of hydroponics. But, this is the world of commercial hydroponic farming, this is not the world of hobby hydroponic pot growing. Commercial growing goals and means are very different than hobby growing. What does the hobby hydroponic world have in common with the commercial growing world? – healthy roots. Maintaining excellent water quality is a very big deal for both.
All this fodder in this thread is not about selling anything. This is no more looking at new scientific technology and methodology used within the commercial hydroponic industry. The commercial hydroponic farming industry includes growing tomatoes, lettuce, basil, etc. and also cannabis.
The horticulture industry has addressed, discovered new technologies and rediscovered an ancient elemental gas (O2 gas) and applying a real “fix” for the old low oxygen problems that result in sick roots and root suffocation. It’s about the industry replacing air (aeration technology and air pumps) with oxygen, O2 (1 type of oxygenation technology of many types). Yes, there are many different types of O2 technologies used. PSA medical O2 generators are only 1 of many types of O2 technologies currently available in hydroponic world today. Used medical O2 machines just happened to be a very inexpensive and often available in Green Sheets ads.
The common denominator of all these O2 technologies is – they deliver high concentrations of elemental O2, not air. O2 machines do not deliver room air nor does insuring optimal DO continuously depend on chilled water to achieve 100% DO.
The industry also uses ozone for oxygenation and sterilization. Ozone is extremely efficient, but high dissolved concentrations of O3 precipitated iron out of the water if the water contains iron. This is just more fodder for the techy grower to think about.
I do understand why something this new and different is brought up (pure oxygen vs. pure air) can be extremely disturbing to previous thinking and methods which is often 1 normal side effect of technological change.
Any paradigm shift in technology and scientific concepts can be very disturbing, unsettling and strange.
I clearly understand that this forum targets hobby canna-growers, not commercial canna-growers growing cannabis for quality and quantity, for maximum sales and highest profits for buds and seeds. The point here is growing cannabis for fun, not for high profits nor making a good living nor selling illegal pot on the streets without a license.
I doubt seriously that any forum members here has applied for or purchased any State License to grow and sell canna-buds, hemp rope or shirts made with hemp fibers.
@JH231 honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if there were some members here that do actually have a license for this. After saying this, it’s not my business if they do. We are all here for the enjoyment of growing, no matter how many.
On to the o2 conversation, you’re right trying something new scares people. But you don’t know until you try. Even if it’s a miserable failure it’s a lesson learned. Honestly I think it will be successful, only because it logically makes sense. I do think there will be a saturation point where other variables would help improve the grow. Like more lighting because they’re doing so well, to supplemental Co2 because they’ll need more because they have more of the other.